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In some strange convergence of coincidence, I found out yesterday that Naomi Novik wrote a fic for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
yuletide pseudonymously (I knew she used to write fanfic, and she defends it vigorously, but I didn't know this was an ongoing thing, especially now that her series has been optioned for a gazillion dollars by PJackson). Then today one of my magazines arrives and she's on the cover. You think maybe some higher power is trying to tell me to just read Temeraire already?
In my copious free time. hee.
But I've been thinking a bit.
I have a meta idea on BSG, relating to Measure of Salvation. It struck me while watching Terminator 2, that the Colonies must not have had any science fiction tradition.
Because, if my Roomba (a small vacuuming robot, if you've never seen one) decided to take over the world, I'd at least have the vocabulary to discuss the options. We could ask whether it's a sentient being, whether it's a life-form (not the same question at all), and whether all Roombas are programmed to take over the world, or whether they are capable of individual decisions. We could compare them to images in our culture: are they the T-100 or more like C-3PO? We could ask if it was human hubris that made the creators not hardwire the Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics into Roombas, and others could debate whether it would have made a difference. People could have debates about sending an EMP to wipe them all out. But we can only do this because we have a hundred years of writers and other artists who imagined very many different scenarios with machines "waking up", both cautionary and hopeful, and framed the issues for us.
That is, I think, not true of the Twelve Colonies. In fact I get the idea that no one so much as raised the question about whether smart robots might be a bad idea way back before the First Cylon War. (Caprica if it goes, may make that untrue, but for now, it holds)
I see it in the way the debate is framed in such a binary way: Roslin, Lee, etc think of the Cylons as machines. Toasters. Sometimes they may acknowledge that the Cylons are alive, but that's as far as any of them go. The Cylons are no more worthy of existence than a broken car.
Whereas Helo, because of his love for Sharon and Hera, made the jump to seeing the Cylons (all the Cylons) as People. Wrong People, enemy People, but people. But few others have made that conceptual leap: Baltar, and Bill Adama, probably. Others seem to acknowledge Sharon as a person, but without necessarily extending that to all the Cylons.
So Helo decided genocide isn't a moral option even in Self/species-defense. But Roslin and Lee never reached the question of the morality of genocide in this situation because to them it wasn't genocide at all. Genocide is only genocide, if you're annhilating people; otherwise it's pest control. And we rarely think twice about tenting our homes for termites, do we?
The two points-of-view ended up incomprehensible to each other because they didn't have the words to find middle-ground. That middle ground being closer to the truth -- the Cylons are their enemies, they are not-human, but they are sentient beings. But without a tradition of stories about alien visitors and machines-run-amuck, they're forced to use the only two boxes they have: machine or person. They can't conceive that someone can be both.
Whereas we, for example, already debate how intelligent chimpanzees and dolphins are and how much they think. It's not a stretch to imagine us debating, not whether our computers are smart, but how smart they are, or whether our cars are deserving of protections from abuse. Even animals not generally regarded as thinking beings are protected from cruelty, so why not Robot Dogs?
So, what does this mean? On a superficial level, I'm sure a RTF of Earthlings might very well have some more ideas of what to do about the Cylons. But more importantly, the Colonials are going to have to come to the realization that Cylons are not the monolithic, 'machine' society they think it is. We the audience already know, but the RTF still has to discover that Sharon isn't unique. At least some Colonials will have to move beyond their two cozy, narrow categories and find some more. The question for me is what they do with that knowledge. I've often wondered whether the conflict would become more three-sided (Hard-core Cylons, Hard-core Humans, and a small group of both working together in opposition to the other who only want war) and that knowledge may be the key to get them there. Without it, I don't think there's any hope of anything either than one side or other other's extermination.
*blinks*
ok, that was rather more than I intended to say on that. I hope it made some sense. *g*
And there's now a thunderstorm outside.
yuletide pseudonymously (I knew she used to write fanfic, and she defends it vigorously, but I didn't know this was an ongoing thing, especially now that her series has been optioned for a gazillion dollars by PJackson). Then today one of my magazines arrives and she's on the cover. You think maybe some higher power is trying to tell me to just read Temeraire already? In my copious free time. hee.
But I've been thinking a bit.
I have a meta idea on BSG, relating to Measure of Salvation. It struck me while watching Terminator 2, that the Colonies must not have had any science fiction tradition.
Because, if my Roomba (a small vacuuming robot, if you've never seen one) decided to take over the world, I'd at least have the vocabulary to discuss the options. We could ask whether it's a sentient being, whether it's a life-form (not the same question at all), and whether all Roombas are programmed to take over the world, or whether they are capable of individual decisions. We could compare them to images in our culture: are they the T-100 or more like C-3PO? We could ask if it was human hubris that made the creators not hardwire the Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics into Roombas, and others could debate whether it would have made a difference. People could have debates about sending an EMP to wipe them all out. But we can only do this because we have a hundred years of writers and other artists who imagined very many different scenarios with machines "waking up", both cautionary and hopeful, and framed the issues for us.
That is, I think, not true of the Twelve Colonies. In fact I get the idea that no one so much as raised the question about whether smart robots might be a bad idea way back before the First Cylon War. (Caprica if it goes, may make that untrue, but for now, it holds)
I see it in the way the debate is framed in such a binary way: Roslin, Lee, etc think of the Cylons as machines. Toasters. Sometimes they may acknowledge that the Cylons are alive, but that's as far as any of them go. The Cylons are no more worthy of existence than a broken car.
Whereas Helo, because of his love for Sharon and Hera, made the jump to seeing the Cylons (all the Cylons) as People. Wrong People, enemy People, but people. But few others have made that conceptual leap: Baltar, and Bill Adama, probably. Others seem to acknowledge Sharon as a person, but without necessarily extending that to all the Cylons.
So Helo decided genocide isn't a moral option even in Self/species-defense. But Roslin and Lee never reached the question of the morality of genocide in this situation because to them it wasn't genocide at all. Genocide is only genocide, if you're annhilating people; otherwise it's pest control. And we rarely think twice about tenting our homes for termites, do we?
The two points-of-view ended up incomprehensible to each other because they didn't have the words to find middle-ground. That middle ground being closer to the truth -- the Cylons are their enemies, they are not-human, but they are sentient beings. But without a tradition of stories about alien visitors and machines-run-amuck, they're forced to use the only two boxes they have: machine or person. They can't conceive that someone can be both.
Whereas we, for example, already debate how intelligent chimpanzees and dolphins are and how much they think. It's not a stretch to imagine us debating, not whether our computers are smart, but how smart they are, or whether our cars are deserving of protections from abuse. Even animals not generally regarded as thinking beings are protected from cruelty, so why not Robot Dogs?
So, what does this mean? On a superficial level, I'm sure a RTF of Earthlings might very well have some more ideas of what to do about the Cylons. But more importantly, the Colonials are going to have to come to the realization that Cylons are not the monolithic, 'machine' society they think it is. We the audience already know, but the RTF still has to discover that Sharon isn't unique. At least some Colonials will have to move beyond their two cozy, narrow categories and find some more. The question for me is what they do with that knowledge. I've often wondered whether the conflict would become more three-sided (Hard-core Cylons, Hard-core Humans, and a small group of both working together in opposition to the other who only want war) and that knowledge may be the key to get them there. Without it, I don't think there's any hope of anything either than one side or other other's extermination.
*blinks*
ok, that was rather more than I intended to say on that. I hope it made some sense. *g*
And there's now a thunderstorm outside.
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From:
no subject
From:
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The religion thing is interesting. The part about the Cylons knowing more about the Colonial religion than the colonials do in particular. For a 'race' that's only existed for fifty-odd years and has its own religiion, the Cylons have an unuusal interest. As well as a source. It could be a simple matter of synthesis -- they learned everything, all the scriptures, all the theory etc, which no human could do. Or they had some assistance from one of the Kobol Lords which seems more likely to me.
Time-travel's involved here someplace, I bet. Self-fulfilling prophecies often equal time travel in sci-fi, and I'm thinking that's going to end up as one of the answers.
From:
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The 13th Lord of Kobol is the Cylon God. That's why the Cylons know the Colonial religion so well. In a way, they are part of it. According to what Roslin said about the Temple of Five, I'm assuming the 13th tribe was shunned by the others (Five priests devoted to the One Whose Name Cannot Be...). They cannot even utter the name of that Lord. That's why the 13th tribe left Kobol and headed for Earth -- their new Promised Land. I'm guessing that the 13th tribe were monotheists worshiping only that God while the other 12 tribes were polytheists worshiping the Gods, plural. Add to that a lot of Biblical references to the Exodus of the Hebrews(monotheistic) from Egypt(polytheistic). That's what happened before. In this new cycle of time, I see the Colonials and Cylons mingling on Earth, and that monotheism will be the dominant religion. The new "13th tribe" will be the remaining polytheist holdouts, who will be shunned and then go off on their own Exodus to find another new Promised Land.
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If so, then I ALREADY WROTE IT. Right down to Athena being Athena, and Kara being the 13th God.
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From:
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Sigh. The Valen thing is made of awesome. the BSG stuff? Not so much, sadly.
From:
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So, if we're right, then Kara should be the one to glimpse Earth from the promo, in 3.5, right?